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	<title>Comments on: ACLU invades Montgomery County</title>
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	<description>The Blog of Family Research Council</description>
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		<title>By: ewe</title>
		<link>http://www.frcblog.com/2010/02/aclu-invades-montgomery-county/comment-page-1/#comment-2567</link>
		<dc:creator>ewe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 08:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frcblog.com/?p=2921#comment-2567</guid>
		<description>Bravo to the ACLU.  The school system/government has no right to intrude on the personal rights of a student.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo to the ACLU.  The school system/government has no right to intrude on the personal rights of a student.</p>
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		<title>By: PsiCop</title>
		<link>http://www.frcblog.com/2010/02/aclu-invades-montgomery-county/comment-page-1/#comment-2566</link>
		<dc:creator>PsiCop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 03:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frcblog.com/?p=2921#comment-2566</guid>
		<description>Bob, you can complain about the ACLU all you want. However, that does not make them wrong. Several court cases ... federal and in the state of Maryland ... as well as Maryland statute, all make it abundantly, crystal-clear that this student could not be compelled to say the Pledge of Allegiance.

If the teacher had been a mature adult, she would have known this, and not carried on like a child throwing a tantrum.

The rational thing to do is accept the reality that the law happens to be on this student&#039;s side. I get that you and the FRC does not like the ACLU. The truth is, though, that the ACLU has defended religious folks&#039; rights as well as those of the atheists you would like to see scrubbed from the face of the earth. You&#039;re free not to like the ACLU. You are not, however, free to reinvent the truth, either about this event, or about the ACLU.

The behavior of this teacher ... and your defense of her juvenile caterwauling ... just goes to show what is wrong with religiosity in the U.S. The question is, do you have the integrity and courage to admit this, and change your tune? (Why do I doubt it?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, you can complain about the ACLU all you want. However, that does not make them wrong. Several court cases &#8230; federal and in the state of Maryland &#8230; as well as Maryland statute, all make it abundantly, crystal-clear that this student could not be compelled to say the Pledge of Allegiance.</p>
<p>If the teacher had been a mature adult, she would have known this, and not carried on like a child throwing a tantrum.</p>
<p>The rational thing to do is accept the reality that the law happens to be on this student&#8217;s side. I get that you and the FRC does not like the ACLU. The truth is, though, that the ACLU has defended religious folks&#8217; rights as well as those of the atheists you would like to see scrubbed from the face of the earth. You&#8217;re free not to like the ACLU. You are not, however, free to reinvent the truth, either about this event, or about the ACLU.</p>
<p>The behavior of this teacher &#8230; and your defense of her juvenile caterwauling &#8230; just goes to show what is wrong with religiosity in the U.S. The question is, do you have the integrity and courage to admit this, and change your tune? (Why do I doubt it?)</p>
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		<title>By: Emma F</title>
		<link>http://www.frcblog.com/2010/02/aclu-invades-montgomery-county/comment-page-1/#comment-2565</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 23:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frcblog.com/?p=2921#comment-2565</guid>
		<description>Actually, in the 2006 case Frazier V. Alexandre, a Federal District Court ruled that requiring students to stand for the pledge (even silently) violates the First Amendment. And they have the same authority as SCOTUS, since SCOTUS didn&#039;t overrule them. 

And even if that were not the case, both Maryland and Montgomery County rules are quite explicit that neither students nor teachers can be required to participate in the pledge in any way.

That said, as a high school senior, I honestly don&#039;t get why people think it makes such a difference to kids patriotism. If you&#039;re forced to say the same set of words for 12 years, it becomes nothing more than a formula to you, and the Pledge loses its specialness. This is especially true if you make kids start doing it from a young age, where the full meaning and significance of those words will probably be lost to them. (Ex: throughout elementary school, most of us thought &quot;please be seated was the last line of the Pledge).

I think Justice Robert Jackson (who wrote the majority opinion for the 1943 case) put it best: &quot;To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, in the 2006 case Frazier V. Alexandre, a Federal District Court ruled that requiring students to stand for the pledge (even silently) violates the First Amendment. And they have the same authority as SCOTUS, since SCOTUS didn&#8217;t overrule them. </p>
<p>And even if that were not the case, both Maryland and Montgomery County rules are quite explicit that neither students nor teachers can be required to participate in the pledge in any way.</p>
<p>That said, as a high school senior, I honestly don&#8217;t get why people think it makes such a difference to kids patriotism. If you&#8217;re forced to say the same set of words for 12 years, it becomes nothing more than a formula to you, and the Pledge loses its specialness. This is especially true if you make kids start doing it from a young age, where the full meaning and significance of those words will probably be lost to them. (Ex: throughout elementary school, most of us thought &#8220;please be seated was the last line of the Pledge).</p>
<p>I think Justice Robert Jackson (who wrote the majority opinion for the 1943 case) put it best: &#8220;To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jan Sen</title>
		<link>http://www.frcblog.com/2010/02/aclu-invades-montgomery-county/comment-page-1/#comment-2543</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Sen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frcblog.com/?p=2921#comment-2543</guid>
		<description>Just look at what the ACLU has done!!

&quot;The ACLU and the ACLU of New Jersey (2009) filed a successful lawsuit on behalf of a New Jersey prisoner – an ordained Pentecostal minister – to restore his fundamental right to preach to other inmates. The minister had preached at weekly Christian worship services at the New Jersey State Prison in Trenton, NJ for more than a decade when prison officials suddenly banned that activity without any justification. As a result of the ACLU lawsuit, state officials agreed to allow the minister to resume preaching and teaching Bible study classes under the supervision of prison staff.&quot;

Look here for more examples of ACLU&#039;s work -- does FRC have a problem with this?
http://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-religious-practice-and-expression</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just look at what the ACLU has done!!</p>
<p>&#8220;The ACLU and the ACLU of New Jersey (2009) filed a successful lawsuit on behalf of a New Jersey prisoner – an ordained Pentecostal minister – to restore his fundamental right to preach to other inmates. The minister had preached at weekly Christian worship services at the New Jersey State Prison in Trenton, NJ for more than a decade when prison officials suddenly banned that activity without any justification. As a result of the ACLU lawsuit, state officials agreed to allow the minister to resume preaching and teaching Bible study classes under the supervision of prison staff.&#8221;</p>
<p>Look here for more examples of ACLU&#8217;s work &#8212; does FRC have a problem with this?<br />
<a href="http://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-religious-practice-and-expression" rel="nofollow">http://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-religious-practice-and-expression</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jan Sen</title>
		<link>http://www.frcblog.com/2010/02/aclu-invades-montgomery-county/comment-page-1/#comment-2542</link>
		<dc:creator>Jan Sen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frcblog.com/?p=2921#comment-2542</guid>
		<description>&quot;The right to practice religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The ACLU works to ensure that this essential freedom is protected by keeping the government out of religion.&quot;
 -- The ACLU</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The right to practice religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The ACLU works to ensure that this essential freedom is protected by keeping the government out of religion.&#8221;<br />
 &#8212; The ACLU</p>
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		<title>By: bonncaruso</title>
		<link>http://www.frcblog.com/2010/02/aclu-invades-montgomery-county/comment-page-1/#comment-2541</link>
		<dc:creator>bonncaruso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 08:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frcblog.com/?p=2921#comment-2541</guid>
		<description>Excuse me, but the supreme court ruling in this matter is from 1943, long before the ACLU had any of the kind of power you would like to attribute to it. 

We live in a republic based on representative democracy. Alone the 1st amendment, which we all cherish (left-right-middle) guarantees the right to free speech and therefore, the refusal to say the pledge, which is in and of itself an expression of free speech.

The strength of our system is allowing others their stupidity, based on the principle that the overwhelming majority will simply laugh down the ridiculous ones, for this is also the right of the majority.

But what this teacher did harkens back to 1933-1945 nazi terror or the communist systems in the former USSR or China.

People strong in their beliefs do not have to resort to this kind of thing. The teacher was way off base here and so is your blog post. You are more concerned with the trappings of things that appear to make us look great as a people instead of honoring the principle that indeed makes us great: the 1st amendment to the constitution and all other parts of it. And there is absolutely no mention in the US constitution about reciting the pledge, putting your hand on your heart for it, singing the national anthem at baseball games, etc.. these are all trappings of culture that have appeared with time. Your very stand on protecting freedom actually denies freedom to others.

Are you really so weak in your own beliefs that you get hacked off then a young student who has her own mind and her own will decides to not say the pledge?

And what will come next? Will all students be required to sing christian hymns at school concerts, regardless of religion or creed? Will all be required to participate in invocations with &quot;in Jesus&#039; name&quot; at the end of the invocation, regardless of religion or creed? Is that freedom? Or is this all your attempt to superimpose your worldview on others?

Think about it. Long and hard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me, but the supreme court ruling in this matter is from 1943, long before the ACLU had any of the kind of power you would like to attribute to it. </p>
<p>We live in a republic based on representative democracy. Alone the 1st amendment, which we all cherish (left-right-middle) guarantees the right to free speech and therefore, the refusal to say the pledge, which is in and of itself an expression of free speech.</p>
<p>The strength of our system is allowing others their stupidity, based on the principle that the overwhelming majority will simply laugh down the ridiculous ones, for this is also the right of the majority.</p>
<p>But what this teacher did harkens back to 1933-1945 nazi terror or the communist systems in the former USSR or China.</p>
<p>People strong in their beliefs do not have to resort to this kind of thing. The teacher was way off base here and so is your blog post. You are more concerned with the trappings of things that appear to make us look great as a people instead of honoring the principle that indeed makes us great: the 1st amendment to the constitution and all other parts of it. And there is absolutely no mention in the US constitution about reciting the pledge, putting your hand on your heart for it, singing the national anthem at baseball games, etc.. these are all trappings of culture that have appeared with time. Your very stand on protecting freedom actually denies freedom to others.</p>
<p>Are you really so weak in your own beliefs that you get hacked off then a young student who has her own mind and her own will decides to not say the pledge?</p>
<p>And what will come next? Will all students be required to sing christian hymns at school concerts, regardless of religion or creed? Will all be required to participate in invocations with &#8220;in Jesus&#8217; name&#8221; at the end of the invocation, regardless of religion or creed? Is that freedom? Or is this all your attempt to superimpose your worldview on others?</p>
<p>Think about it. Long and hard.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Greene</title>
		<link>http://www.frcblog.com/2010/02/aclu-invades-montgomery-county/comment-page-1/#comment-2536</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 17:10:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frcblog.com/?p=2921#comment-2536</guid>
		<description>What I find interesting in a number of similar rants against the ACLU is declaring them subversive.  Traitors to democracy.  This is laughable because of its ignorance.  Although I have nothing for or against the ACLU, I do know its sole function is to defend the US Constitution and make the country obey its own laws.

This would make it a necessary thing unless the ranters prefer living under governments like Somalia, France or Russia.  These governments also have constitutions, but they are only given passing notice by the governments.  The law is what the government says it is at the time.  Try ranting there and see how long you last.

Freedoms of speech, assembly and freedom to exercise one&#039;s own religion exist only so long as the governments obey their own laws.  The American Civil Liberties Union, whether we personal like its actions at any given time, keeps working at keeping these laws working.  Now if only they could have something like it for all the graft and corruption to save our tax money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I find interesting in a number of similar rants against the ACLU is declaring them subversive.  Traitors to democracy.  This is laughable because of its ignorance.  Although I have nothing for or against the ACLU, I do know its sole function is to defend the US Constitution and make the country obey its own laws.</p>
<p>This would make it a necessary thing unless the ranters prefer living under governments like Somalia, France or Russia.  These governments also have constitutions, but they are only given passing notice by the governments.  The law is what the government says it is at the time.  Try ranting there and see how long you last.</p>
<p>Freedoms of speech, assembly and freedom to exercise one&#8217;s own religion exist only so long as the governments obey their own laws.  The American Civil Liberties Union, whether we personal like its actions at any given time, keeps working at keeping these laws working.  Now if only they could have something like it for all the graft and corruption to save our tax money.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Mage</title>
		<link>http://www.frcblog.com/2010/02/aclu-invades-montgomery-county/comment-page-1/#comment-2534</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Mage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 14:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frcblog.com/?p=2921#comment-2534</guid>
		<description>Dear Robert,
The ACLU is not federally funded.
Your tax dollars are not funding this &quot;radical outfit&quot;.
I think of us as conservative, trying to conserve our rights
under the constitution and bill of rights.
If you have information to the contrary, please share it.
Thanks,
Mike Mage, Co-Chair
Montgomery County Chapter, ACLU of MAryland</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Robert,<br />
The ACLU is not federally funded.<br />
Your tax dollars are not funding this &#8220;radical outfit&#8221;.<br />
I think of us as conservative, trying to conserve our rights<br />
under the constitution and bill of rights.<br />
If you have information to the contrary, please share it.<br />
Thanks,<br />
Mike Mage, Co-Chair<br />
Montgomery County Chapter, ACLU of MAryland</p>
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		<title>By: FarmerTom</title>
		<link>http://www.frcblog.com/2010/02/aclu-invades-montgomery-county/comment-page-1/#comment-2533</link>
		<dc:creator>FarmerTom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frcblog.com/?p=2921#comment-2533</guid>
		<description>Bob, so wrong in so many ways....  &quot;s always with this federally-funded outfit,&quot; is wrong because the ACLU receives no tax dollars at all.  Not even mine. I have to send them post-taxed dollars... &quot;(This) illustrates how classroom discipline and American patriotism are under constant assault by the ACLU.&quot; Uh, the teacher violated not only US law (precedent) but Maryland *state* law, which says a child has no obligation to either recite or stand during recitation of the pledge. Classroom discipline? Holding a teacher accountable for creating a bad situation? For hectoring a student in an illegal manner?  Dude, you need to fix your priorities. &quot;Our tax dollars are funding this radical outfit. &quot; Hello? Are you that clueless? NO tax dollars fund this outfit, and it&#039;s not radical, quite the reverse: the ACLU attempts to support basic, Constitutional rights. How is that radical? &quot;Surely, the fact that the ACLU uses our tax money against us is a gross violation of our rights.&quot; STOP SAYING THAT! Repeating &quot;our tax dollars&quot; doesn&#039;t make it true. The ACLU has NO TAX DOLLARS. Repeating an obvious untruth makes you not only subject to ridicule, which I am gracefully keeping at bay, but makes you a LIAR. You might have a legitimate gripe, but this isn&#039;t the way to make it. &quot;a teacher who simply tried to give students the opportunity to express their patriotism &quot; Dude: you do not coerce patriotism.  &quot;Those who wish may stand and recite the pledge/sing the national anthem/wear flag lapel pins etc&quot; provides an opportunity. Yelling at someone to do any of those things is not &quot;providing an opportunity&quot;-- it&#039;s coercion, and in Maryland, in schools, it is illegal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob, so wrong in so many ways&#8230;.  &#8220;s always with this federally-funded outfit,&#8221; is wrong because the ACLU receives no tax dollars at all.  Not even mine. I have to send them post-taxed dollars&#8230; &#8220;(This) illustrates how classroom discipline and American patriotism are under constant assault by the ACLU.&#8221; Uh, the teacher violated not only US law (precedent) but Maryland *state* law, which says a child has no obligation to either recite or stand during recitation of the pledge. Classroom discipline? Holding a teacher accountable for creating a bad situation? For hectoring a student in an illegal manner?  Dude, you need to fix your priorities. &#8220;Our tax dollars are funding this radical outfit. &#8221; Hello? Are you that clueless? NO tax dollars fund this outfit, and it&#8217;s not radical, quite the reverse: the ACLU attempts to support basic, Constitutional rights. How is that radical? &#8220;Surely, the fact that the ACLU uses our tax money against us is a gross violation of our rights.&#8221; STOP SAYING THAT! Repeating &#8220;our tax dollars&#8221; doesn&#8217;t make it true. The ACLU has NO TAX DOLLARS. Repeating an obvious untruth makes you not only subject to ridicule, which I am gracefully keeping at bay, but makes you a LIAR. You might have a legitimate gripe, but this isn&#8217;t the way to make it. &#8220;a teacher who simply tried to give students the opportunity to express their patriotism &#8221; Dude: you do not coerce patriotism.  &#8220;Those who wish may stand and recite the pledge/sing the national anthem/wear flag lapel pins etc&#8221; provides an opportunity. Yelling at someone to do any of those things is not &#8220;providing an opportunity&#8221;&#8211; it&#8217;s coercion, and in Maryland, in schools, it is illegal.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.frcblog.com/2010/02/aclu-invades-montgomery-county/comment-page-1/#comment-2530</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:16:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frcblog.com/?p=2921#comment-2530</guid>
		<description>The Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that students cannot be forced to salute the flag AND Maryland law explicitly allows any student or teacher to be excused from participating in the pledge. Case Closed FRC. Get a life. The real American Taliban is the rabid Right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Supreme Court ruled in 1943 that students cannot be forced to salute the flag AND Maryland law explicitly allows any student or teacher to be excused from participating in the pledge. Case Closed FRC. Get a life. The real American Taliban is the rabid Right.</p>
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